Ever wondered just how powerful faith and determination can be? Brace yourself as we share a heart-touching conversation with Dr. Michelle Bengtson, a renowned neuropsychologist, and author, who courageously triumphed over physical deformity and chronic pain. Drawing strength from her faith and inspired by influential figures like her mother's friend and Joni Erickson Tada, Dr. Bengtson's journey is filled with resilience, perseverance, and surprising victories - even in the face of her husband's daunting battle with cancer.
We bear our souls in discussing the deeply personal experience of pain and suffering. Understand from our perspective the many forms of pain - physical, emotional, relational, spiritual, financial - and how they can potentially impact individuals. Through biblical stories of Job and the woman with the issue of blood, we shed light on the importance of empathy, prayer, and faith. It's easy to feel unheard or uncared for when dealing with chronic pain, but we share our own experiences in finding healing, comfort, and encouragement through trust in Jesus.
In the final segment, we share our thoughts on finding hope amidst adversity. Hear from Dr. Michelle Bengtson about her book and its relevance in recognizing God's work in our lives. We delve into how we can experience God's hope in today's uncertain times and how to share this hope with others. Our conversation is a beacon of hope, inspiration, and a testament to the healing power of faith. Tune in, and you might just find the strength you need to overcome your battles.
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Ever wondered just how powerful faith and determination can be? Brace yourself as we share a heart-touching conversation with Dr. Michelle Bengtson, a renowned neuropsychologist, and author, who courageously triumphed over physical deformity and chronic pain. Drawing strength from her faith and inspired by influential figures like her mother's friend and Joni Erickson Tada, Dr. Bengtson's journey is filled with resilience, perseverance, and surprising victories - even in the face of her husband's daunting battle with cancer.
We bear our souls in discussing the deeply personal experience of pain and suffering. Understand from our perspective the many forms of pain - physical, emotional, relational, spiritual, financial - and how they can potentially impact individuals. Through biblical stories of Job and the woman with the issue of blood, we shed light on the importance of empathy, prayer, and faith. It's easy to feel unheard or uncared for when dealing with chronic pain, but we share our own experiences in finding healing, comfort, and encouragement through trust in Jesus.
In the final segment, we share our thoughts on finding hope amidst adversity. Hear from Dr. Michelle Bengtson about her book and its relevance in recognizing God's work in our lives. We delve into how we can experience God's hope in today's uncertain times and how to share this hope with others. Our conversation is a beacon of hope, inspiration, and a testament to the healing power of faith. Tune in, and you might just find the strength you need to overcome your battles.
With 4Freedom, all your communications, internet activity, and app usage are encrypted using multiple layers of robust, military-grade encryption algorithms that surpass the standards used by the NSA.
You can start your secure account today:
https://www.4freedommobile.com?ref=bridgebuilders
My guess is Dr Michelle Banksen. Michelle is a Hope concierge, whether a board-certified clinical neuropsychologist, host of award-winning podcasts, your Hope-Filled perspective, or the author of several award-winning books, including Hope Prevails and Breaking Anxiety's Grip. Her passion is to share hope and encouragement with others. Her newest release is the Helm of His Garment reaching out to Guy when pain overwhelms. She loves all things teal, spending time with friends and family, taking long walks or sitting by quiet shores. It's a bonus when any of those are accompanied by a sea salt, caramel chocolate. You'll find her and her Hope-Filled resources at DrMichelleBcom. Welcome Dr Banksen to the show. Well, it's so good to have Dr Michelle on today. How are you doing today, Dr Michelle?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's a fabulous day and I'm excited about our conversation today.
Speaker 1:I am too. I'm looking forward to it. I've been looking forward to this for a few months, so it's good to have you on prior to Christmas. Thank you, Keith. I appreciate it Good. I love to get to know my guests a little bit better and have my audience get to know you too. I'm going to start out with some good back and forth questions, but give me the best piece of advice you've ever received.
Speaker 2:All right. So before I got married, I received a piece of advice to not ever start doing anything in my marriage that I wasn't willing to do for the rest of our marriage, and so I never offered to mow the lawn, and it has worked out just fine.
Speaker 1:I should have picked up cooking. No, that's really cool. I like that. I'm also curious for my guests. You know, as you think about our lives, there are people who have really been a powerful influence in our lives. Are there some people that you can think of, that you want to kind of maybe give a shoutout to, just to say, hey, you were so instrumental in my life. Is there an opportunity for you to kind of think about those people you talk about, those who were really influential in your life?
Speaker 2:So I have a physical deformity and my mother's best friend, when we were growing up, had suffered polio oh wow and as a result she had physical disfigurement. She had compromised inner vital organs so, like in the winter, she had to be careful about not being out and around people. But she had the strongest faith of anyone I knew and she really just had that can-do spirit. And when I was a young child and going through lots and lots of major surgeries, she was really an inspiration for me, and so was Johnny Erickson. Tata Johnny was the one who dove into the Chesapeake Bay and ended up a quadriplegic, and Johnny is now about I don't know, between 65 and 70 years old, but her book had just come out as I was traveling across country to have surgery, and so, although I've never met Johnny, she was a huge inspiration to me back then.
Speaker 1:I remember back in about 20 years ago she was really really out there and open. I mean I remember her books a lot and running across speeches that she'd done and stuff that she'd done. So, yeah, I remember that, I remember that name. It kind of all came flowing back again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and she's still in ministry. She's gone through cancer. She continues to battle chronic pain, but she's one who's not wasting her talent for the Lord. She's not allowing her pain to sideline her at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's powerful. So let's get into your story, so tell us your journey.
Speaker 2:Well, I was fortunate. I was raised in a Christian home, and so we were in the church every time the doors were open. In fact, keith, we were usually the ones who opened the doors and closed the doors. So I'm grateful for my upbrain, because it provided a foundation of faith. I was born premature, at a time when babies weighing less than three pounds didn't survive.
Speaker 2:And then, three days after my third birthday, I came down with a life-threatening illness fever of 107. And doctors told my parents you've got to do whatever you can do to get that fever down or she's going to die. And if she doesn't die, she'll be mentally incapacitated. So my parents followed the advice, did alcohol rubs and ice baths. Nothing was bringing the fever down. So doctors said well, give her aspirin. They didn't know I was deathly allergic to aspirin. Oh no, and so they ended up having to pump my stomach. I was in the ICU for months on end. It caused physical deformity and chronic pain, and so I have one leg that's two inches shorter than the other. My right foot is half the size of my left foot and it's disfigured. So it looks like the feet of Asian women, whose feet have been bound so that they didn't get too big and I walk with a limp, but they told my parents I would never live. My mother is from New Zealand and she's got that British stiff upper lip and she was kind of of the mindset not my child and I'm grateful for that because she didn't let me quit, she didn't let me just roll over and say I can't, and that was so instrumental because God has used that I'm kind of of the mindset watch me and that has served me well as an adult.
Speaker 2:My husband, after we've been married a few years, was diagnosed with a very rare form of abdominal cancer. We had a toddler at the time and when we walked into the oncologist's office the oncologist looked at my husband and said Mr Banksy, I'm so sorry you're too young for me to have to tell you this, but you have two years to live. And we went out holding hands, sat in the car and just bawled our eyes out because my father died when I was a child. So here I was, anticipating my husband was gonna die, was gonna leave me a widow, like my father left my mother and would leave our toddler childless. But we do have very strong faith and people circled around us and my husband is the most optimistic person you will ever meet, and while I credit God with saving his life, I do believe, as a neuropsychologist, that our mindset matters. So his positive mindset, I do think, made an instrumental difference. Well, he got through that. He went through a 23-hour surgery in which there was a one in four chance that he would survive the surgery. But he did, and each year we would go for checkups and he was doing really well.
Speaker 2:But then the chemotherapy that they used to treat the original cancer brought on a new cancer, and when that happened I jumped in and did what I was taught to do as a child. And that is when crisis hits you just jump in and do more. You do whatever it takes. So I did jump in and do more and I got to the point where, because he was unable to work, I would work at my private practice 100 hours a week. So I would work until midnight or one in the morning. I would race home, take a quick shower, take a power nap before power naps were a thing and then I'd be back at my private practice by three or four in the morning. And I did that for over a year before finally my body shut down and said no more.
Speaker 2:So very long story short, I ended up in the hospital, had two emergency surgeries, I was put on medically prescribed bed rest for five months. I was kept alive on IV, hydration and nutrition and I dwindled from 113 pounds down to a skeletal 74, which is 30 pounds lighter than I am today. And the longer I remained ill and unable to do what I was used to doing, I couldn't be the doctor, I couldn't be much of a wife, not much of a mother, and I really I cried out to God and said, god, this is gonna be my life, like I'm not sure I wanna go on living. And the longer I remained in that sick bed, the more depression got a foothold in my life. Now, the interesting thing about this is, two weeks before I became ill, I had agreed to publishers and agents that I would write a book about depression.
Speaker 1:And then depression hit.
Speaker 2:Okay, right. Well, the longer I stayed depressed, I was doing all the things that I would normally suggest to my patients to do. I was prioritizing rest. I get into counseling. I tried medication once. Doctors said I could. I prioritized nutrition and physical exercise. And, keith, all these things helped. So I want your listeners to know they did help, but they were not enough to take the depression away.
Speaker 2:And I cried out to God and said what is going on here? You're gonna have to show me what's missing. Something is missing and you're gonna have to show me what that is, because I will not go back to being a doctor and recommending things unless I know they worked. And I've never heard the audible voice of God, keith. But it was like a holy whisper to my heart and it was very clear. And it was like God was saying Michelle, unless you address the spiritual roots of disease, it is like you are attempting to put a bandaid on an infection and hoping it gets well.
Speaker 2:And the light bulb went off because I had been addressing the physical, the mental, the emotional, but not the spiritual. I didn't know there was even a spiritual side to depression, and so that began a journey for the Lord and I and he began teaching me about spiritual warfare and about the importance of the words we speak over ourselves and over other people. And over time the depression lifted and I got back to full health and going back to seeing patients. But I can tell you that the book that came out of that time is a much better book than had I not gone through that period of depression, because had I not gone through that it would have been a very clinical, sterile book. But now readers say I can tell you've been there, you get it. And so now on the other side I'm able to say I'm thankful for the experience I went through.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a powerful story as you think about what you went through and the depression. What is a common misconception many people have about depression? Because you know, I hear about people who've dealt with depression and I sometimes get the most simplistic answers for how you deal with it. I think the worst one I've heard is why don't you just cheer up? It's just an attitude thing. Why don't you just get over it?
Speaker 2:I think that is the most common misconception is that people with depression have control over it and if they would just think on the bright side or if they would just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, they could get through it. And, honestly, we need to be looking at depression as a medical condition, just like cancer, diabetes or heart disease. Our brain is our biggest physical organ and so depression is just as much a medical condition as those other conditions that I mentioned. And telling people things like you know, other people have it so much worse than you, or if you would just think on the positive side, you would feel so much better. What it communicates is a lack of empathy and compassion, and then it induces guilt, shame and remorse for the person going through it.
Speaker 2:I think about the story of Job and how Job went through all types of suffering physical, emotional, relational, financial, spiritual and his friends were amazing when they came and sat with him quietly in his grief for a week. Right when they got in trouble was when they started telling Job all the reasons that they thought this was happening to him. Right and for us when people are suffering, let's come and be present, but let's not point fingers and act like we know what the cause of their situation is, god knows. So let's pray for them instead of judging them.
Speaker 1:Exactly Because you don't know what that situation is, and to insert yourself with these wonderful solutions that you have no idea what it feels like to be there. I think it's the same thing with grief, too. When you saw a loser as a child and the worst thing you can say is I understand your pain, like you have no idea what that's like. Even if you've lost a child, you still have no idea what it's like for that individual.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. Even when we've gone through a similar situation, our background, our upbringing, our personality and the details of that situation are different. So we can have greater empathy and compassion. But to assume we understand how another feels is a big trap to step in.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, I want to talk about your new book, hymn of His Garment Reaching Out to God when Pain Overwhelms. It sounds like you wrote that book from personal experience, just from the title we just shared, and there are a lot of people in the world right now who are where you were. They're dealing with either chronic pain, either physically or emotionally, or both, and they're at their wits end. And I'm just curious I love some of the chapters of your book, but what do you hope people who read this book take away from it first, this book is largely based on two stories the story of Job and the story of the woman with the issue of blood.
Speaker 2:And in the book I don't talk just about physical pain but I talk about emotional and relational and financial and spiritual pain and secondary pain, which is the pain that's inflicted by the words or actions of others that make the pain sufferer feel worse, as well as grief and loss.
Speaker 2:And in the book we talk about the woman with the issue of blood because, just like Job, she went through every one of those types of pain and she reached out in faith to touch the Hymn of Jesus' Garment. And I think it's so tempting, keith, that when we're hurting, when we're in pain, we want to give up. We just want the pain to end. And I think about that woman and I think what if she had given up right before she reached out to touch the Hymn of His Garment? She would have missed out on her healing and we would have missed out on the benefit of her testimony. So what I want readers to really take from it is that you are not alone in your pain. God does understand, he does care, but keep pressing into Him. Don't give up on God because you might be tempted to give up right before your miracle.
Speaker 1:You know, the cultural part that people miss about that woman with the 12 years of bleeding is interesting in that, because of her situation and because of the Jewish culture, that 12 years of bleeding she also was not able to go into the temple for 12 years, so she was, in her mind, probably literally also cut off from God. So you have this society shunned you and now even it feels like probably God shunned you. So talk about feeling in a dark, dark place when you're there for 12 years with that pain and loneliness and isolation. That's a story that few people have ever walked in those shoes before.
Speaker 2:That's right. Well, you were right when you said that it sounded like I wrote this book from personal experience, because I've been dealing with chronic pain for over a decade. I think what's so important, though, is to recognize whose voice we're listening to, because, in all transparency, keith, there are times when I am tempted to say God, do you even care? Yeah, like, do you care that I'm suffering? I know you can heal, so why aren't you? And I have to think she must have had the same questions.
Speaker 2:And then you have the comments of people saying well, it's because you don't have enough faith, or you haven't prayed enough, or you must have a the Bible, where Jesus went to people and healed them. But when this woman went to Jesus, she got more than she asked for. She was going specifically for physical healing, but when he said, daughter, he gave her her worth and her identity back. When he said, your faith has made you well, that was a testimony to all of those onlookers who were right there. And when he said, go in peace, he gave her back her future. So she got so much more healing out of that than I think she was even seeking, and that's an example to us that, if we are willing to seek out Jesus. God is such an abundant God that so often he gives us more than we ask for, but sometimes he does a healing work in the area that he knows we most need it Before we get the healing that we most want.
Speaker 1:So, as people are struggling with that chronic pain and the spiritual part that comes along with it, what insights from someone who's been through it and someone who deals with it do you have as someone who's going? Does God really care? And if he does care, why am I still suffering?
Speaker 2:In answer to the first question, yes, god cares so much that he allowed his perfect and holy son to come and walk the earth and to endure more suffering than we will ever know in this lifetime. Scripture says that we don't have a high priest who doesn't understand our suffering. Jesus went through so much so that he could relate, and I truly believe, keith, that God did not create us for pain and suffering. That came with the fall. And so when we hurt, I think God hurts with us, but he also loves us so much that he won't violate our free will. And sometimes this is the part we don't like to talk about.
Speaker 2:But sometimes we do things to contribute to our own pain.
Speaker 2:Right, physically, maybe we don't rest, or maybe we've engaged in a lifestyle that now has physical ramifications.
Speaker 2:Maybe relationally, we've not always been the kindest and gentlest, and now we're dealing with relational pain.
Speaker 2:What I know is that God never turns his back on his children, but we frequently walk away because we wanna do it our own way.
Speaker 2:And God says I love you so much, I'll be waiting here when you come back, but I'm not gonna chase you because I'm not gonna violate your free will, but what I think it's so important for us to remember is that God loves us, and God scripture says in the Bible God will never withhold any good thing from his children, and so when we're in that waiting period, I have to believe God would not withhold healing if that is what was best for us. But sometimes God has greater things for us. Back in that time when I was so physically ill and all I wanted was my physical healing and even now what I desire more than anything is for God to miraculously touch my body but what I got during that time when I was physically ill and going through depression, was healing in my relationship to God, because when I worked 100 hours a week, I took it upon myself to be my own provider and God's like I will let you do that.
Speaker 2:I did not ask you to do that, but I will let you do that. And when I learned through that experience is I could go back once I was physically and emotionally healed. I could go back to working 100 hours a week, but I learned God was not gonna love me anymore if I did.
Speaker 2:And I could decide to not go back and work another hour and he would not love me any less. You see, I grew up with such a religious spirit that I didn't learn about a relationship with God. I learned that I had to perform to earn God's love, and that's not biblical. And God taught me through that horrific time in my life no, he loves me because I'm his. So then, when I did go back to working, it was out of gratitude for what he had done for me. It wasn't from a place of striving to make him love me. So he healed something in me that, quite honestly, was more important than my physical or emotional healing. And I think that's what we have to keep in mind, because the Bible says he won't withhold anything good from his children. There is a purpose and we have to trust him through it.
Speaker 1:What you just said reminds me of one of my favorite verses in scripture the prodigal son. Cause we always focus on the lost son, we never focus on the older son who did what you were just describing. He come when the younger son comes home and he's mad at the father for celebrating him coming home. He says why don't you appreciate me? I'm here all the time. I'm doing all the things you want me to do. I never misbehave. Why aren't you recognizing me? And I love the father's response. I've always been with you. I didn't really ask you to do that. I loved you anyway. You just missed out on the love. You missed out on the relationship because you were so busy trying to please me by your behavior that you missed out on the connection we already have.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So that's powerful. I love that, Love your story. We talked about pain, but we haven't defined pain For those who read your book. You have a chapter in your book just what is pain? So tell us a little bit about that chapter and what people who read the chapter are gonna get out of it, without giving us away the book.
Speaker 2:But just kind of a touch about what that looks like that chapter starts off with my own personal story, with doctors saying well, tell me what your pain is like. Is it sharp, is it dull, is it achy, is it throbbing? And I remember thinking I don't know, it's all of them, but none of those things really describe it. I just know it hurts. And the thing about pain is that when we have a physical injury, like a broken arm or a sprained ankle, people can see the result of that injury and so they can have compassion. But so much of our pain is invisible to the naked eye, and we all know and have experienced physical pain. But emotional pain is that pain that causes us to ruminate over and over again, usually from a negative experience that, if left untreated, emotional pain can cause physical pain. And relational pain is usually the result of a break or a strain in a relationship that's important to us and that can have ramifications of causing emotional pain, which can cause physical pain. And spiritual pain is that type of pain that causes us to distance ourselves from God but also simultaneously be uncomfortable by the distance. It frequently comes when we believe God doesn't care. If he cared, he would have healed me by now. Or are you punishing me, god, or God? Do you even see me in my pain? God? Why have you healed so and so, but you haven't healed me yet? And so these questions that I think generally come from the enemy of our soul. It's much like in the Garden of Eden when Satan twisted it and says to Eve did God really say? And so that can cause us to feel a distance from God and to be uncomfortable about that distance. That can either cause us to press into God or it can cause us to walk away from God. And then financial pain is kind of obvious. It's the situations that undermine our belief that we can provide for ourselves financially. And the secondary pain is that type of pain that comes from the words or actions of others, kind of like what you were talking about before. Well, if you did this, that or the other thing, you'd be healed by now. Or if you had more faith, you would be healed by now. You know, when my husband was diagnosed with cancer, we had everybody telling us about every magic pill, potion or prayer that was supposedly going to cure him, and we tried a lot of them and guess what? None of them worked Right. And so it's kind of. It's almost this superiority that I think I know what's best for you. I know what caused your pain and suffering and I know what's going to cure it. When really Do you? Because you can't see at my cellular level, but God can.
Speaker 2:And then there's that grief and loss, and sometimes it's not even the loss of a physical person. It can be the loss of our hopes and dreams. It can be the loss of the future we anticipated, like the women with the issue of blood. Because she couldn't work, because she was ostracized and had to live outside of her community. She couldn't work and we know she experienced financial pain, because scripture tells us she spent all of her money on doctors and only got worse. So I know she went through grief and loss as well.
Speaker 2:The difficult part is that frequently, keith, we experience what's called compounded pain, and that is when we experience more than one of these types of pain at a time. And the thing about pain is that pain robs us of the best of us, the best of our emotions, the best of our time, the best of our energy, the best of our attitudes, the best of our responses. And if we're not careful and if we're not staying grounded in God's word, it can really wreak long-term havoc because we'll get a skewed opinion of our good God based on the pain and suffering that we experience.
Speaker 1:So I'd love to ask my guest this question, and that is if you could give a message to people in the world who are suffering right now. What would you tell them?
Speaker 2:First of all, you're not alone. The more I talk to people, the more I realize everybody is in some kind of pain, one of those types of pain. You're not alone, so don't believe the lie that you are. But even if you don't know someone who can relate to your particular type of pain, jesus can, and what he's asking you to do is to continue leaning, in, pressing, in asking him to reveal more of himself to you. Don't believe the lie that you're alone. Don't believe the lie that nobody understands, because Jesus does. And, more than anything, don't give up, because what would happen if you give up right before you reach out for them of his garment and you see God do something amazing in your life?
Speaker 1:That's great. I love that. So you've got a lot of books and there's so many. Looks so interesting. But what are you most excited about in this season of your life?
Speaker 2:Well, the hemivis garment just came out, in August, and I have just turned in the edits for the sequel to the hemivis garment.
Speaker 2:The hemivis garment is kind of like for the reader who's experiencing pain now, and the next book looks at the fact that our painful experiences often makes us believe that we are either unusable by God or it makes us believe that we can't live the abundant life because we've gone through physical pain or relationship pain, infidelity, divorce, abortion, you name it. Whether the experiences we've gone through were because of something we did, because of something else that someone did to us or just some random thing, god doesn't say that we're out of that area where he can use us. In fact, those painful trials are often the platform that God uses as preparation for him to be able to redeem that pain later. You know, when Jesus was crucified and then rose again, he still had his visible scars, and he had those scars to prove that he was who he said he was and he did what he said he did. So our scars are a beautiful testimony to other people of God's work in our life.
Speaker 1:I love that example. It's very powerful to remind ourselves of that. That next book she'd be excited you got a title for it yet.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's called Sacred Scars, trusting God's Promise that Our Painful Past Is Not Wasted.
Speaker 1:Wow, looking forward to reading that one. Thank you so, dr Michelle, what do you want your legacy to be?
Speaker 2:In short, I want it to be that the people will remember me, not because of me, but because of the Christ in me. I'm real and raw, transparent and vulnerable online in my books, but it's because I want people to know I don't make it in this life in my own strength. I could not do it without God, but because of God I have hope to face each day, and you can too.
Speaker 1:That's a great message. It's a great testament to God's life through you and the impact you're having through the work he's done in your life. Thank you, is there anything I haven't asked you that I should have asked you?
Speaker 2:No, I think. If anything, it would just be if you were to ask me why do I do what I do? It's because our world is in such great need of hope, and I want people to understand that, as long as God is still on his throne, hope still prevails. So don't give up. God is not done working, so we have to keep trusting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really an important message, because it's so easy to be discouraged when you look around you and just to want to give up, but there's so much good that God can still do and is doing, if you open your eyes and see it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that's the key we have to have eyes to see and ears to hear. Right, I challenge myself, keith, to look for what I call simple joys. You know, when you're dealing with pain, everything feels big and heavy and ominous and if we're not looking for it, we'll miss. Like I'm looking out my window right now and there's fall leaves. I'm in Texas, so we're just now getting fall, but I'm looking at it and I look at the leaves and I think, wow, god did that for me Right.
Speaker 2:He put he created the seasons for us to enjoy. But it's so easy not to look at those simple things. They're not so simple. I could not create a tree that would have leaves that would change color. They're really huge things. But I call them simple joys because we get wrapped up in looking for the big things in life, the big miracles and the big acts of God. But every day is a miracle.
Speaker 1:Right, so true. So for those who who heard our podcast and just said I got to get this book, where can listeners find your book, this book and the other books?
Speaker 2:The easiest place to find all my resources is at drmichellebcom, but it's super easy to find all my books. You can look for me on Amazon. I have an Amazon author page and all my books are there. And if you go to drmichellebcom there are so many free resources and just click on the books tab and it will take you to all your favorite retailers.
Speaker 1:Thank you, and thank you for reminding us to look for hope. I need to be reminded that today and it'll stick with me for a while I hope it sticks with the listeners for a while to look for the little things that God is doing and open your eyes and hear and see and smell the hope that God has for us, and especially in these times in our world. So, yes, thank you for that great reminder.
Speaker 2:I appreciate the opportunity to chat with you today.
Speaker 1:Well, you have a blessed new year, and may God continue to use you to spread hope and joy throughout the world and point us back to our savior.
Speaker 2:Thank you, you as well.