The Art of Cultural Navigation: Insights from Dr. Carrie Graham

Ever feel like you're straddling two worlds? A fascinating journey awaits you as we sit down with Dr. Carrie Graham, an adult learning strategist and training consultant, to unravel the complexities of navigating different cultural environments. Dr. Graham offers a unique perspective as an only child and person of color in predominantly white schools. Her remarkable insights on employee engagement and information retention promise to be a game changer for anyone in the learning and development sphere.

Welcome to a revealing discussion on diversity, equity, and inclusion. As we cross the bridges of cultural and background differences, Dr. Graham forces us to reflect on the importance of active listening and meaningful dialogues. Discover effective adult learning techniques and the profound power of choice in carving a meaningful legacy. You'll be struck by the raw honesty of Dr. Graham's experiences, and her emphasis on regular reflection on life purpose and legacy.

In the final leg of this stimulating conversation, Dr. Graham will leave you inspired. She delves into the importance of transparency in connecting with others and sets the stage for conscious decision-making. Ponder over the thought-provoking question - What impact will your choices leave behind? Connect further with Dr. Graham, be prepared to challenge your perspectives and leave your mark. Get ready to be gripped by the insights and wisdom that this episode promises. Tune in, listen, learn, and leave inspired!

Transcript

Keith Haney: 0:58

is Dr Carrie Graham. She is an adult learning strategist and training consultant who helps businesses improve employee engagement and learning, information retention and long-term skills application by developing a customized learning journey for employees and clients. She collaborates with executives to establish strategies that improve employee training outcomes, offering intermediate solutions and 50% long-term improvement. Dr Graham has reputation for understanding stated and unstated problems, then asking critical questions to help uncover clear and insightful solutions. Not believing in the one-size-fits-all approach, she customizes solutions to support unique individual and organizational learning needs. Welcome, dr Graham, to the podcast. Well, it's so good to have Dr Graham on the show today. How are you doing, dr Graham?

Dr. Carrie Graham: 1:53

I'm well, Keith. Thank you for having me. I am excited to have a nice little conversation with you today.

Keith Haney: 1:59

I am too. I'm excited to see where this goes. I have no idea where it's going to go. We'll let God guide that and see what he comes up with.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 2:09

Absolutely. You know it's best if we just yield. We just have to yield, I agree.

Keith Haney: 2:15

I'm going to ask you a question. I love to ask my guest to kind of get us warmed up, to get to know you a little better. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Dr. Carrie Graham: 2:27

I would say I never thought it was good advice until the last couple of years.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 2:37

Honestly honestly, I thought it was just talk. Growing up, my mother would always say well, carrie, just do your best, just do your best. You know, and as a kid you hear that and let it. You know. If it's coming from someone closest to you, you just sort of take it in stride. And over the years she would just say that there was no explanation, there was no additional words of encouragement. It was simply well, just do your best. Just do your best. And in the last couple of years, being on the journey that I'm on and some life changes that I've experienced, I've recognized that doing my best is truly all that I can do. And if I, you know, remain faithful to God and recognizing that that he has equipped me to do my best, then that's all that there is that can be done, and it's freeing. It has truly freed me when I went back and started reflecting on that advice. So I would say from the words and lips of my mother do your best, carrie, just do your best.

Keith Haney: 3:53

I like that because really that's all you can do. That's how you can show up in the world is by giving it your best.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 3:59

Right, right, and you know, I've had one other person ask me that question and I, you know, I giggled to myself because I want to have something riveting to say. But the reality is is it's simply, you know, a short phrase, but it's been with me my entire life and it wasn't until I was older that I recognized the value in that advice. And so I, you know prayerfully, my mother will get a chance to listen to this and I, I'm so thankful, I'm so thankful that she planted that seed so young in my life. And you know, to leave me, I just now realize, like, just do your best there you go.

Keith Haney: 4:44

I love that. I'm curious you kind of mentioned your mother. Who are other people in your life who served as a mentor for you or to inspire you yet again.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 4:56

You know I can't say it's any, you know someone riveting. But as I've gotten older I have to go back to my mother. She, you know, raised me, a single single mom. My sister came along and we had two adults in our household, with my sister, who is significantly younger than I am. But I have to. I have to give honor to her and her faithfulness and and setting being a role model all those years, even when I didn't, I wasn't wise enough to recognize it. And again, as I got older and have taken some risks in my career, I recognize that she modeled for years. She modeled hard work, ethic, being compassionate to others Wow that's powerful.

Keith Haney: 5:53

When you can remember those people in your life who have poured into you and given so much to you, you always want to kind of scop and give thanks to to them and to God for those people in your life. Okay so, dr Graham, I'm always curious too with my guests to tell us your personal story. We kind of talked about a little bit. I'm just curious, what was your journey like?

Dr. Carrie Graham: 6:15

Oh, my journey is an interesting one. I thank you for asking. Let me first say that Thank you for asking, and I always appreciate that question because it it forces me to look back at my life and take away a new lesson. So this is an opportunity for me to gain another lesson. But, as I mentioned earlier, I was an only child until I was 13.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 6:44

And I say that because I was incredibly shy and no siblings, and so I did a lot of things by myself. I learned how to, you know, listen and not be really seen or heard, but to listen really well at conversations, and and that stuck with me. So I then, you know, was in school, the only brown face in my entire education, and that, you know, shaped me and, in some regards, reinforced the lonely perspective of my life. And then, you know, my sister was born, but, you know, an entire being, an entire generation apart. You know, there there still was really not that much sibling communication and development together.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 7:41

But being in school, going to predominantly white schools, being the only face of color, being a woman going, it was challenging and then going to college, being originally from Connecticut and going to undergrad at a small white school in North Carolina. You know it posed some more of the same challenges, with being the only one being being in a new regional culture the Bible Belt and I chose a profession that was along that same vein. So I studied sports medicine and undergraduate school and in my master's program and immediately went into the workforce and found myself as the only brown face yet again, but this time working in division one athletics and mostly with white men, and and and that has been my career experience up until 2000 and 2020. I left division one athletics and moved over to being a faculty member and in the literally the ivory tower, and it was a lot of the same thing. So, working with white men, working in all white environments, and it, it, it shaped who I am and was shaping who I am In some ways good, in some ways not so, not so great, but it's.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 9:26

It's been a journey that I look back on and I think I'm thankful for it. I'm thankful for it because it has taught me how to be compassionate toward others. It has taught me the true meaning of being inclusive and the importance of cultural competency. It has taught me to rely on my faith, my God, and the skills and talents that he's placed inside of me. Despite whether or not other people see that talent and acknowledge that talent, I know it's there because God placed it there. So it's been quite the journey. I I wouldn't say that it has been anything spectacular or or or sexy, so to speak, but my journey is mine and and and I am, I am truly thankful for it.

Keith Haney: 10:28

It's fascinating when you described your journey. We share a lot of similar traits in our journey. My I also was an only child for eight years of my life, my brother and I eight years apart, and it was very lonely. You had it was hard to play football with yourself in the front yard. You got to throw the ball and catch it yourself, Right? No one else gets that.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 10:52

Yeah, I do get that one.

Keith Haney: 10:54

Right. And then I also went to an all white school, an elementary school, and it's funny because I actually wrote a book on healing the racial divides in America for churches how do you deal with this whole race thing? And because I went to an all white school, I had to live. I had to tell people I had to live two lives. I lived. I lived a white life in school where I came way, you know, interacting with them, talking one way, and then I had to go back to my black neighborhood and talk differently or be picked on. And so I became like I tell people this cultural translator. And so I wrote the Bible study from the perspective of what's it like for me to culturally translate what is going on with race in our country, Because when one group says one thing is misinterpreted, when another group responds back, it's also a service. So I tried to kind of act as a person between who's lived in both worlds to try to explain that you're just not getting each other.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 11:52

Right, right. I'm so happy that you wrote that book, especially for the church and the church community, because it really, it really lends itself. It is two lives. It is two lives that many people ends up living in, and I remember when I later in my career, when I got my PhD, I was working with someone who he frowned upon code switching, and one of the things that one of the the positions that I take on quotes code switching and there's a lot of discourse around it is one people will do what they need to do to navigate the space that they're in to the best of their ability.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 12:46

That's the first thing, and so who are we or who is someone else to judge how they navigate that space? And so code switching or cultural translation is one way that you choose to navigate. That is simply part of your journey, and mine as well. One of the things that is really important about auto reunification is feel free to consider that, while there has been criticism of me in that regard, I view it as Because of those those experience, those years of experiences, I'm able to navigate both spaces. I know how to navigate An all white environment and be comfortable navigating it. I know how to go to the neighborhood and navigate it and be fully comfortable and feel authentic in navigating it. And there are a lot of people in the world who are unable or unwilling to navigate multiple spaces.

Keith Haney: 13:55

Right, yeah, and you're right. And it's hard for people who don't embrace that, because what cracked me up years ago was when I was growing up and I was like a teenager and all of a sudden the term sell out came out. Yeah, and I'm like as opposed to seeing us as a cultural navigator. It's like you're just selling out to your, your community. I'm like. No, I'm not. You have to learn to live in both spaces if you want to get beyond the wall and the border you're putting around yourself.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 14:24

Yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree, 100%, it's, it is. It is an interesting experience to have and, again, I value our conversation because it's a shared, a shared experience and even in my adulthood, at 50, living in the, I moved back to the, the Bible belt, the southeast, a few years ago and every, I would say, about once a month, it comes back up, but it comes up from the perspective of, well, you're a Yankee, you are a northerner, and, and I view it as really with a dis disregard and a disrespect for, culturally, how I grew up, how I live, my, how, you know, a majority of my family lives their life and but knowing that I'm here and so again it becomes a place of how am I navigating both spaces without being disrespectful to both spaces?

Keith Haney: 15:37

Right, exactly, it's so funny. And the weird thing too is, as an adult it's it's harder, I almost because no one really understands, I think, or it's not, since they know what people tend to not understand the value of looking at things from both, both perspectives. We have gone to our corners in this society and we just throw blurbs at each other and no one actually listens to the other side. It's like I don't think he means that when you, I don't think it's what you're hearing, what he's saying, and and I, and so I try to help people to understand that I really don't think people are that bad. I think you're just misunderstanding. Like the whole Black Lives Matter thing to me was it was a was a hilarious, kind of a sad commentary.

Keith Haney: 16:26

Because, because most Black people that I talked to who use that phrase were not necessarily giving to a organization. They were simply saying do you understand that there have been some? There have been some problems in the Black culture for all years and years and years and now, all of a sudden, we have a voice to tell you that these lives matter and would you please pay attention, as opposed to we're supporting an organization Black Lives.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 16:54

Matter, right, right, right, you're absolutely right, keith. That is, it becomes a talking about the topic as well as talking through the topic. Right, you know it's in the, in the academic space it's. It's addressing discourse with a big D and addressing discourse with a little D. How are we going to talk about it? Are we simply talking about it or are we talking through?

Dr. Carrie Graham: 17:30

Whatever the issue is and and my work in adult learning is pretty similar so frequently I find that Businesses are are focused on and view either their employees or their clients as the commodity and and as the the vehicle, and what they do is they. They completely disregard this is an end of it. This is a human being who has prior experiences, they have likes and dislikes, they have needs and wants, and they are bringing all of who they are to the table. Why are you not speaking to that, as opposed to focusing on the content that we have to present or focusing on how great I am as a presenter and you should feel blessed to have me or, you know, like Focusing on the skill that you need to develop so that you can make me a million dollars, or, you know, whatever the case may be, it's, it's a lot of. I view a lot of that as when we have gotten so far away, far so far removed from Engaging in conversation with people.

Keith Haney: 18:52

Right and when I talk to people about like D E I, for example, what I think people sometimes misses, everybody wants to feel like they belong, that they're welcome, that they're included, but we've taken D E I and we've turned it into another thing to throw at each other. Another, another fighting point versus how do you, as somebody pointed out, how do you show up in situations where you are listening to people who you don't understand and attempting to learn from them, and how are they also showing up to learn from you? If we're not both engaged in this, this give and take, in the workplace or in our society, or in our churches or in our homes, then we're going to be stuck in a place where we just see everybody who's not like us as the enemy.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 19:44

Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely and that goes to the earlier point in our conversation, as you and I were growing up and balancing living into cultural cultures. Academically, it's the same thing. How are people showing up when they are interacting with us? How are we showing up when we're interacting with others? And and you factor on trying to convey a message and if, and then factor on another layer, if that messaging is around an issue that's a sensitive nature, it it is a point where it's easy for there to be tension and defensiveness and an unwillingness to to set our egos aside and say look, I don't have a clue what you're talking about. I don't understand your experience. I'm going to sit with you humbly and ask you to explain some things and also ask for forgiveness if I ask a question that doesn't come out in a way that's politically correct. Please forgive me and just know that I am truly trying to understand your position.

Keith Haney: 21:08

I just had a guest on my podcast who's his Latino and I said I'm just curious, what is the appropriate term in your culture? Is it Hispanic, Is it Latino? Is it something else? And she said thanks for asking that question Because I honestly was curious because I hear so many different terminology thrown around that I want to address you in the way that is most respectful to you, but I don't think a lot of people take the time to even curiously ask that question.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 21:42

Right, right, absolutely absolutely, and it falls in so many different places. I remember it again reminds me of when I got my PhD. There were people who and there still are people who refuse to acknowledge that, and so they'll say carry in professional settings, and it's rare that someone either calls me Dr Graham. I've gotten Dr Carey, which I think is it's gonna pacify you, right, I'll say the doctor, but it's not really legit, all right. And then there's those people that ask and they say what do you prefer Now, oftentimes outside of business and work, the people that I meet, please call me Carey, right, like I came in the world as Carey Graham and that's how the good Lord is gonna receive me, and so this is simply a credential that I had the opportunity and the blessing to get.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 23:06

But acknowledge who I am, right, like that's really all that it is is. It's again, I'm gonna. People either don't want to acknowledge it or half acknowledge it and I just I'm always torn and there's a part of my heart that is like man, you still refuse to see and acknowledge me as I'm showing up for you.

Keith Haney: 23:35

Right right.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 23:38

And it's funny, I have an uncle and my uncle, every now and again we're pretty close and every now and again, if I like, make a silly mistake or something, he goes.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 23:49

All that education, carey, all that education, and like, literally all I can do is laugh, right, like he says it with love and it's funny because my family, it is. Oh, that was an accomplishment that she made, right, like she had, that we're proud of her. But that's still, carey, over there, right, you know, and they treat me as such, which I value. I just value it. I value the people that have known me for a substantial amount of time and they acknowledge who I've become, because it's not to disregard the past, it's not to throw up, throw the past in my face to say, well, we knew you when you were Right and that's a, you know, a statement that often is found in the church well, we knew you when you was out doing X, y and Z. But rather, those people, I just I hold them close, I truly hold them close because they understand the accomplishment and they honor the accomplishment but, more importantly, they honor the totality of who I am.

Keith Haney: 25:12

Right, so for my listeners who are just kind of being introduced to you still so, tell us what you're currently doing.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 25:21

Yeah Well, thank you for asking. I am. I have taken those 20, those 20 plus years of working in higher education as a faculty member, as a professor and as a researcher, and my PhD, and now I support small and mid-sized businesses in improving their training and development programs. So, whether that is an onboarding program or whether it's a coaching program or a certification program, I work with them to make sure that their audience is engaged in the learning process, that they understand the content and are developing the skills that are being presented and then that they know how to actually apply the thing that they learned. Because, sadly, we all have sat through some type of training where great information was being shared but they didn't help us develop the skill nor helped us apply it appropriately.

Keith Haney: 26:37

Oh yeah, definitely been in those presentations where it's like you look at your watch the entire time going, are they?

Dr. Carrie Graham: 26:41

done yet. Right, right, right, Like my statement is. I look at my watch and I think this is an hour of my life. I can't get back.

Keith Haney: 26:50

I know exactly.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 26:52

I can't get back. And so I remember what it was like to sit through those types of meetings for 20 years, and what I found is it causes more stress on the individual, on the audience, on the learner, because if it's an employee, their work isn't getting done, so their work is building up with the expectation that you attend this workshop, but you still do your work right. So there's that level of frustration For people who are clients, who pay to go to a workshop. I spent all this money and this is all I'm getting Like. I spent the money, but I don't know how to apply it right, and so, in either case, the learner, instead of being filled up, they are being depleted. And so now and this is where my heart starts to ache those individuals go home or they return to their loved ones, but they're not their full self. And so you have people who are frustrated with their job, and now they go home to their loved ones, and they're still frustrated, right, because it doesn't just go away.

Keith Haney: 28:12

Right.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 28:14

And that's the reason I do the work is I always think about the loved ones or the community. How are people showing up? And if you spend eight hours of your day or a significant amount of money to participate in some type of training, you should get a return on that as the learner. It shouldn't be only about the business, it should be about the learner. So that's the focus that I take in the consulting work that I do is how can we get these learners engaged and motivated, how can we ensure that they're learning and how can we help them apply the information?

Keith Haney: 28:58

And I love it.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 29:00

I love that God has blessed me with the opportunity to do the work that I do.

Keith Haney: 29:06

Yeah, I can hear the passion in your voice. I am curious To me, I think, sometimes of adult learning. Some people almost see it as the oxymoron, like large jumbo shrimp. Um Ha, ha, ha, ha ha ha. Government intelligence. Why is it? I think that adults maybe get to the point where we think we only want to learn when there's some benefit for us, maybe financially or even promotion-wise. How do you get over that and how do you find ways to improve the people's desire to grow in adult learning?

Dr. Carrie Graham: 29:46

Yeah, that's a great question. You have to. Well, a couple things are happening. So the first is the difference between children and adults. Is a child is an empty slate? The beauty of the adult is that we have all this life experience that we use to learn new information, and oftentimes people don't acknowledge that, and that's why I said we're complex individuals as we show up, and so one of the things that is overlooked is bringing the rich experience, life experience, to the learning table. We have expectations, right, but those expectations have been developed over time, over multiple experiences. So you and I both agreed that we've sat through some horrible trainings.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 30:47

I refute it takes a lot out of me to attend any type of training now, and it's because since 1996, when I started working, I was sitting through bad trainings. So it's hard to get someone who's had, year after year after year, a specific type of experience, and now you want them to go into your experience with some enthusiasm and excitement Right, right, like. That's a hard lift, and so one of the ways that I encourage people who are developing any type of training or programming is, instead of expecting them to be excited, why don't you simply ask them and see where they are Right, like if someone said Carrie, you know how are you feeling about being in this training? If it had anything to do with technology, I would be like I'm aggravated already. I don't really want to be here.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 31:59

I don't like technology. I want to go back to a time with pencil wooden pencils and the sharpener that's screwed into the wall Right like it's. But that's because of my experiences with technology, whereas when I got married two years ago, I immediately became a grandmother. Overnight I became a mom and a grandmother. I want to do the best by my grandsons. Often, when I know they're coming over, I get on Google and I'm like what do boys of this age like to do? How can I learn how to do it? In that regard, my learning is highly motivated, because there are people's lives that matter to me.

Keith Haney: 33:01

Yeah, it makes sense.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 33:02

Right. But if people never ask me, like Kerry, we want you to attend this training on parenting, blah, blah, blah, blah, I would say no, I don't want to do that. I'm 50, I have never given birth to children. I'm not about to raise any children. I'm not doing that. I get my grandkids on a couple of times and it's all lovely. It's focusing on the person asking them. Simply ask them where are you? Are you excited to be here? Do you have a little bit of trepidation about being here? The same holds true about having conversations like you and I spoke about earlier. Tell me where you are. Simply just tell me where you are in this.

Keith Haney: 33:59

I do wonder. I'm working on a doctorate in education.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 34:05

Congratulations and welcome.

Keith Haney: 34:08

Yes, it was interesting to know. I never really thought about the fact that there is a whole school of children's education pedagogy, yeah, but I did not realize that there was an entire different set of education for adult learning and I wonder sometimes if, in our best efforts to educate people, we're using the wrong principles for adults.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 34:35

Absolutely, absolutely. I see it all the time and you're absolutely correct. And, quite honestly, when I started teaching, I was making the same mistakes, and it's because I was educated to be a sports medicine, health care provider, not how to be an educator at the university and college level. So you're absolutely right. Oftentimes people will develop a training or facilitate a training in one of two ways. One, what they have experienced, and sometimes that's not the best right. Right, they saw someone else do this and it seemed to work for them, so I'm going to do it. Or they are doing what they see their children do In classrooms or remembering what their childhood experiences were like. But, andrew Goji, is the study of adult learning, how to support adults in learning, and it truly is, in fact, its own field of study, right?

Keith Haney: 35:55

Because I can just see when I go to a presentation, everybody gets your markers out. I'm like my marker's out. What the heck Right we're about to color out? I don't know if I can do this. Yes.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 36:10

Yes, yes, it's true, it is so true. And you know, keith, I'm going to turn our conversation in another area. It's, you see it in church. You see it in churches and I teach a graduate. I only teach one grad class a semester for a local program and I love it. And every semester the topic of black churches and the experience of black churches comes up and you just see it all the time Like you are still using a practice that was used to the fort what? And I'm supposed to change my life because of the way right, like it's fascinating to me. And so often when I, as I navigate life day to day life, so often like the research and the theories about adult learning come to mind and I'm like why are these people behaving this way? Like don't they know this is ineffective? I just keep walking or doing whatever I'm doing, but in the back of my mind I'm like this is such an waste. A waste, just a waste, a waste.

Keith Haney: 37:34

So to, to, to, to to a homo hammer. That point home a little bit further my education as to do this as a pastor. We had one class, if I remember it. It was so I could teach confirmation or basic instruction to elementary school kids. I don't remember the education course getting beyond young people, and so I think we were trained to, to do, you know, to teach 12 year olds, the 13 year olds, the faith and I don't really think we were taught to do education for adults.

Keith Haney: 38:10

I look back on it. Some of the early things I did were like this is just horrible. I hated it myself. I didn't want to do it. The people that want to be there, and they weren't there. So like something's got to change. This is not working.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 38:24

Yeah, absolutely, and the thing about it is, like you know I spoke about, adults come with different experiences earlier in our conversation and if you think about it, think about who sits in a congregation. You have people across ages. You have people across experiences with God, with religious, with organized religion, with their faith. You know you have people from different walks of faith, people who are navigating the world as they live in it. You know, and that you know, all the social social issues that are out there, but yet people are going to go to a house of worship, a place where they're seeking something, and one person is going to stand in front of them, like in a child's classroom, and is going to spout information at them and expect that every person, no matter how different they are, they are going to be positively impacted and walk away and be able to apply it from the same message that you gave all those people.

Keith Haney: 39:46

Right, and that's hard. One thing I try to do when I'm preaching before a congregation is when I'm crafting my sermon I approach it with if I'm sitting in the pew. What are the questions that this text raises in my mind?

Keith Haney: 40:04

And so I will say let's get this out of the way, because I remember I just preached not long ago and I was preaching on a book of Amos and it was one small section where, basically, god said you disobeyed me and I'm going to bring down judgment on you. And that was a text. And so I opened up by going I drove all this way for you to hear this wonderful uplifting message. Aren't you excited that I came? I love it, I love it. Oh, and they laugh because you know they're thinking that you could kind of ignore that as a preacher. Go, huh, they're not thinking that. No, they really are. They're going there's no gospel here, there's no good news here, and you're preaching on this and I'm going what in the heck did I get out of bread for to hear this?

Keith Haney: 40:45

And so I opened up and started this is what you're probably thinking. Well, let me tell you I'm about to preach on the entire book so you get a bigger picture of what's going on. And just as one chapter, and we dug into you know how? What is that? How's that applied today? If you go back in time, what's happening with an aimless is still happening in America today. We have prosperity and God saying you're a prosperous, or you're not paying attention to us, to me, anymore, and so can we relate to that, and I think everybody in the room could at least begin to understand at some point. You get that fundamental feeling of, yeah, I do know what that feels like.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 41:23

Right, right, right. And that's you know. I'm so happy that you shared that example because it's you know, one of the things that I have that clients often ask me is they'll say well, how do I address the needs of everyone when I can't be one on one with them? And you did that. Right Like you. You, you put put the thing out there. Right, the elephant in the room. You called it what it is, you acknowledge, you, publicly acknowledged it.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 42:00

But but then you said you, you posed the question of yeah, this doesn't seem like happy. Go go like like yeah, this is the guy I want to serve. Right Like this, that it doesn't read that way. And so how many times have you felt that way? Or in what aspect of your life causes you to feel that way? And so you can still draw people in in terms of their motivation to learn and their capacity to learn If you pose a like it's the same question, but how people interpret that open-ended question and how they apply it to their own lives is a very effective way to get people thinking.

Keith Haney: 42:50

Right, cause you're not answering the question for them. You're letting and you got to. And the thing is, you learn to pause, to let them have time to think. You can't just throw it out there and go okay, now, here's what. Here's the answer. Like no. I want you to sit in that for a moment and reflect and personalize it and I'll show you how God's people in that day dealt with it and maybe the things that they did may be helpful for you as you're dealing with it.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 43:15

Right, right. And the thing is is so often again, going back to communication people are are uncomfortable with silence. Right, they are so uncomfortable with it. And again, this is one of those times when I go back to being an only child, having to play by myself or sit in a room of adults and not say a word, Like I'm okay with silence, I'm okay with making eye contact and being silent, you know, like all the things that are uncomfortable, that most people feel are uncomfortable, but it's in that silence that people are really able to make one process, the information, make it make sense for themselves and then apply it to their own situation.

Keith Haney: 44:10

Right, exactly. So I'm curious, as we're talking about this, and I love your passion, but I'm kind of curious what drives you and what's your why?

Dr. Carrie Graham: 44:25

Yeah, my why is? I don't believe Stop, stop what? Okay, bye-bye. I don't believe that one size fits all. No one is the same, but yet everyone deserves an opportunity to live the way that they so choose and to be happy. That is my why and that is the passion that drives me Now.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 44:55

I say that because, again, for 50 years, for the most part, I was the only one, and a large part of my upbringing and my education and my career was people wanting me to fit in the box, people wanting me to do things in a singular way, even though I was around, peg right, like I'm round, but the box is square, and so I never fit in. The singular approach Never fit for me. I didn't grow up with a silver spoon in my mouth and so I didn't have access to, like, social capital and and such and so, and because of those things, I've learned and I've experienced that the passions that I've had Became squelched, they became small. The desires that I had had to take a backseat to someone else's agenda. So that's my personal experience. In my doctoral research I found the same thing right. So Women of color who are in the academy which is what my dissertation was on they had these experiences of, well, you don't fit what you know quote unquote expectation, so we're happy to have you here, but you kind of got to take a backseat. And that has health Implications. It has mental health implications, it has career longevity implications and and it kills people's passion. And I I've been there. I've been depressed, quite honestly, I've been been sad, and I've been on the journey of seeking and and I don't want others to have to travel that. That journey. It's a lonely place. It's an incredibly Painful and hopeless place to be, and God has a firmly believe that God has placed so much in each of us that we should be able to to shine in the way that he wants, the way that he made us. We Are all already validated as a believer. We're validated by God and so we don't need to be validated by other people. And yeah, and so that's that's why I do the work and I've shared this story with others before and I'll share it with you and your audience.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 47:45

When I started my business in 2020, I turned in my final set of grades and higher education and I remember I was really working on my best my consulting business. I was sitting at my dining room table and I had a pretty big decision to make related to my business and I was like, well, who can I call? And no one came to mind. And I and I immediately sat back and said, well, carrie, this is your business, why are you Getting like trying to figure out who to call to validate decision in your business? And then I immediately realized and it truly I realized it in that moment God validated me.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 48:36

I don't, I do not need anyone to validate me. I've lived my entire career Seeking the validation of white men because that's the environment that I was in and I don't need that. I can be successful on what God has given me Alone. I don't. I it will be successful, you know, if I'm following the tenets that God has has commanded for my life, and so that has true.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 49:10

That was truly a life-changing experience for me, and one that I am just incredibly thankful for, because in that moment I had a moment of despair like, oh my goodness, I'm not going to be able to have a business because I don't know who to ask, like, what to do. And the reality is is I never needed anyone to make good decisions. I'm a smart individual, right, like my mother did. As she said, I didn't raise no fools, right, like I make good decisions and I'm really thoughtful in the decisions that I make, and so I it really it truly was a turning point, not only in my business but in my life, in my walk, in my faith with God and and yeah, so I'm passionate about that. I'm really passionate that people develop what's naturally in them, like that is. That is something that is really important to me is that I'm simply here as a consultant to show you, to help you identify what your gifts are and and how to refine them.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 50:37

I'm not here. I'm not here to change how anyone does their work. I'm firmly. I also believe you have the power of choice. That gave us all free will. You can choose to use my recommendations or you can choose not to.

Keith Haney: 50:52

You're right exactly.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 50:54

You have the power of choice, but that that's what drives me. That is truly what drives me. So often I've spoken at professional, national and international conferences and people have commented. They're like you know, your presentation was really engaging and you seem like it's easy for you public speaking, and the reality is is I really am not a fan, right, like I really am not a fan, but I've learned skills to do it well.

Keith Haney: 51:30

Right.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 51:31

And so I again it's. It's not a one size fits all. I don't believe in forcing or or recommending that people change who they are. Tell me who you are and and let's figure out some, some things that we can use to elevate who you already are.

Keith Haney: 51:54

That's amazing.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 51:56

I could talk to you for hours, but I do I feel the same way here, keith, like you're, you're asking me such great, amazing questions and, like I, like I think I mentioned earlier that when people ask me questions about my perspective or about my life, it may, it forces me to take a moment and and pause and be reflective and and find another lesson in my life for myself, right? So I am so thankful to you and and I could, I could talk to you forever too, because, yeah, I'm getting a new lesson. I'm getting new lessons.

Keith Haney: 52:38

I do. I do like to ask my guest this question because we've had you're making such an impact I believe in in this space and I don't, and I don't think a lot of people are have no one has your approach. I mean you've. You've been uniquely crafted by God to be in this space in a unique way that only you can show up in. Yeah, with that in mind, my question for you is what do you want your legacy to be, mmm?

Dr. Carrie Graham: 53:08

Mmm the dash.

Keith Haney: 53:10

Yes, the dash.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 53:12

The dash. I and I hope I don't get emotional and if I do it's okay. It's okay.

Keith Haney: 53:23

Actually, this is a thing that's new to my podcast. Now the guests I ask questions to at some point they cry. I think it's like the more he pulled it show. I say so yeah.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 53:31

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I always say, like God gave us all the emotions and so he gave them to us for a reason, so it's okay if we use them. I, I really pray and it really is a prayer. I pray that my dash, my life, the time in between, reflects God's love to others. Absolutely, absolutely, god's love to others, but that people can say wholeheartedly that Carrie took a very simple perspective of life and wanted it all to be beautiful. Because that's it and that really is what I want, I. I believe that when people are living their fullest life, it's beautiful. When someone changes their life because they chose to, that is a beautiful thing, that is a beautiful thing. And when people have peace like undescribable peace and undescribable joy, those are beautiful things. And if I can be a part of helping anyone have that, even if it's for you know what, the one moment that our paths cross, I want to be, I want to be able to tell my savior that that's what my life was.

Keith Haney: 55:25

Right.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 55:27

That would. That is what my prayer is. Is that my life, that she took a simplistic approach to everything that she did, ended. Glorified God.

Keith Haney: 55:42

That's amazing.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 55:44

Yeah, yeah, I I do. I live a very simple life and and there once was a period in my life where I made things very complicated and I wasn't happy. You know, I put on a good face but I was not happy, I was dying inside and I, I, I don't. I don't want to forget that experience, but I don't want to relive it and I don't want others to travel that journey if they don't have to.

Keith Haney: 56:27

Yeah, I get you, that's important.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 56:29

Yeah, yeah, Now I, I, you know the good Lord. He has all of our lives planned out. But if it's, if it's about choice, what, what do I know or what have I done that I can help someone make a better choice for themselves?

Keith Haney: 56:52

Right, yeah. So for those who have been impacted by our conversation and want to connect more with you, follow you, where can they find your website and connect with you on social media?

Dr. Carrie Graham: 57:03

Yes, well, I would love to have. I love to meet new people and to hear their stories, and so people are always welcome to visit and see my work on Dr Dr D R Cary Grahamcom and on LinkedIn. From a social media perspective, I'm on LinkedIn, dr Cary Graham, and I I'm I'm excited. I'm excited when new people will cross my path, when new people say hello to me, and even if they ask a question and if it's something that I can support them with, it is it's what I want to do, because it is how I live my life.

Keith Haney: 57:49

Wow. Well, dr Cary, thank you so much for being on the podcast and providing great content and transparency, and this was a phenomenal conversation. I'd love to have you back on again, but blessings on the work that you're doing and the the dash that you're creating that will let leave a legacy behind.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 58:08

Well, kate, thank you so much. Future, future, dr Keith, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I don't take our time and your invitation lightly and I I firmly believe in in being transparent, and so I I am truly honored to be spending time with you and your audience and would welcome the opportunity to have a follow up conversation, as as you need it has. It has truly been delightful. It has been affirming from you know some childhood experience, right.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 58:46

It's been affirming. And again, I I appreciate that last question because I think it's so important that people revisit their why revisit their dash, revisit their legacy on a, on a regular basis. And so you provided me that opportunity and for that I I am blessed and I say thank you.

Keith Haney: 59:09

Well, thank you so much, Dr Graham. Bless your blessings on your Christmas.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 59:14

Well, I thank you, same to you, same to you, and, and I prayerfully, we will be seeing each other in the new year.

Keith Haney: 59:21

I love to.

Dr. Carrie Graham: 59:23

Yes.