Jesus, Love and Justice

Meet author Craig Mattes.  Craig is a rostered Director of Christian Outreach with the LCMS. Husband to Amy and father to Will and Reagan. Received a marketing degree from Valparaiso University. Worked in the printing business for 11 years before receiving the call from God to work for the church. Received my DCO certification from Concordia University in St. Paul. Worked for 3 congregations in the Northern Illinois District of the LCMS for over 17 years in the areas of outreach and small group ministry. Over a year ago he started my own business - Craig Mattes Services - which provides digital services (social media marketing, website design/management, graphic design, etc) for churches across the country.  Besides Jesus, Love, and Justice, you can also find my devotions and group discussion guides for "Meet Jesus", "Follow Me" and "Living Acts, Knowing Romans" on Amazon. 

Transcript

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 1:11

crag welcome to the show how you doing today

[craig_mattes]: 1:15

well k thanks for having me

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 1:17

it's good to have you in good to connect with an old friend

[craig_mattes]: 1:21

absolutely i know i haven't seen each other for a little while

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 1:24

it's been a while probably three years since i left illinois

[craig_mattes]: 1:27

i think so yeah

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 1:28

yeah

[craig_mattes]: 1:28

yeah since seeing you live i think yeah it's been about that time

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 1:31

you

[craig_mattes]: 1:31

right

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 1:31

know we don't we don't travel in the same circles anymore i'm hanging out with the

[craig_mattes]: 1:35

we

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 1:35

pigs

[craig_mattes]: 1:35

don't

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 1:35

and you're in illinois

[craig_mattes]: 1:38

right oh

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 1:39

hanging up with the craziest but

[craig_mattes]: 1:42

yeah

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 1:43

oh

[craig_mattes]: 1:45

oh

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 1:45

it's always good to have you so i went orders to

[craig_mattes]: 1:47

as

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 1:47

get a chance to get in chance to know you better what's the best advice you've ever received

[craig_mattes]: 1:53

i

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 1:53

right

[craig_mattes]: 1:53

got it from my dad and i used to when i worked in the printing business for eleven years i was doing kind of customers service production co ordinating work and he was our vice president general manager we didn't really see other much we were in two separate buildings but one time he came by and i was you know all in the heat of some big project and he asked me crag are you working hard or you working smart and from that point i'm like okay let me re evaluate have i done a good job of delegating on this project or not and i worked for a guy my supervisor was more leaning to it's the working heart and then he found himself he worked on us every single week and it was interesting when there was kind of a little bit of a shake up with our company um and i ended up becoming a like like a main group later um in following my dad's advice i barely worked any weekends and i would we had like a third shift i would delegate things trust people with things and i was living a much comme life

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 2:59

yeah

[craig_mattes]: 3:00

so working smart then working hard so give that to my dad for that for sure

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 3:06

i like the ethics set back and re evaluate my life and i see if i'm working hard working smarter

[craig_mattes]: 3:12

well and i

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 3:12

i

[craig_mattes]: 3:12

need

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 3:13

need

[craig_mattes]: 3:13

to i'm glad you

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 3:14

yeah

[craig_mattes]: 3:14

asked me that question because i need to ask myself that question again m

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 3:20

that's right exactly so for the millions listening at home tell us something about

[craig_mattes]: 3:26

ah

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 3:26

yourself that most people don't know

[craig_mattes]: 3:29

this is a hard one i was asking my wife about it last night i do enjoy i don't think i really ever post about it i like enjoy or enjoy restoring old furniture and i just did it within a lot within the last year my mother in law moved from one can do to another place and she had a but bunch of vintage wooden furniture that needed just kind of clean cleaning up so that was really fun and then we have a new baby my wife and i seven plus months and found some really cool like vintage items like in facebook market place that i got for free i just needed to give him a good sand job good paint job and they're like brand new and it was new because i would even send i send a couple of pictures to the previous owners and they're like oh wow i'm gonta send this to mike it's because they cherish it so much that they needed to get rid of it you know but they're happy to see it having a new purpose in a new life and being blessed by another family so yeah that's one of those things and when i re do it then i have to like just stare at it for a while i just like it seeing going through this is just so cool to see it being transformed so i've been doing that for a while i'm kind of like an amateur garbage picker you know that whole thing no one man's trash was another person's treasure so i've grabbed multiple things you can find in my house in my basement office here and there's i've got things that a garbage pick that restored a garbage pick at and

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 5:02

that's

[craig_mattes]: 5:02

s been kind of a fun thing for me to do

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 5:04

that's

[craig_mattes]: 5:05

a

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 5:05

cool especially when you're rolling in the pasture i mean we're working with the church where we're all about restoration and transformation

[craig_mattes]: 5:12

it

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 5:12

so

[craig_mattes]: 5:12

is it's really it's funny how god gave me that wire ring because yes there's nothing more i love that seeing a life

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 5:19

i

[craig_mattes]: 5:19

restored for christ too

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 5:20

right

[craig_mattes]: 5:20

so that's definitely they go hand in hand

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 5:23

yeah cool so i'm always curious you know there are people in our lives who shape who we become and help shape our character who are those people in your life who were an inspiration and you maybe even help p you into the man you are today

[craig_mattes]: 5:38

yeah i really give it to my parents um yeah my mom and dad my dad passed away a few years ago my mom's eighty nine living independently still i think she's got some pains as you could imagine but still resides in her home but they would ave been one of their big inspiration things is they both grew up going to lutheran racial schools and it made such an impression on their lives and it was in chicago in fact they met at what used to be luther institute it was just single lutheran high school in the chicago it was right in the center really of town was near what was the old chicago stadium my mom came from the north side my dad came from the south side and definitely shaped in my dad particularly both of his parents died before he was eleven years old and that lutheran school that he went to saint andrews made an enormous impact on his life and so where god just blessed m my my dad and his business world and with my mom for their partners on this they really wanted to kind of back and see other kids have the same opportunities that they had for them with another with a group of others who wasn't just them alone but they were certainly core people got this what is now called chica land education foundation cliff started to help keep lutheran schools alive in the city of chicago and we just went to a benefit dinner just this last spring i was o at brookfield to um but my dad he gave and he did really well in his life wasn't a millionaire or anything but some of his actions like he i won't give the number amount you know but he was asked he was giving a certain amount to my former high school luther north sizable amount okay and he asked his close friend he was doing really well in the business world had a big business hey you know would you match that and that only did that gentleman match it but he gave that same to the other lutheran high schools so god totally used my dad my folks to i get that thing going and i've just always loved that and they're always just wanting to help people and just like i just never the way they raised me i don't really recall any time where christ wasn't a part of my life and ud be like doing just prayer too like kind of did the normal if you know at the common table prayer you know come lord jesus be our guest you know you you repeated that a lot but might dad would be like if we sat around the table did we pray sometimes if you repeated a lot you forget he okay if none of us remembered we're going to pray it again and he just kept very consistent on that that would be yeah my mom and dad um they're amazing my mom even at eighty nine she's having people at her home once a week she calls it the open door and god's used her in multiple ways introduced you know reaching people for christ and wanting them to come to faith in him so it's just been beautiful yeah

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 8:53

that is really a neat story thank you for showing that i'm

[craig_mattes]: 8:56

welcome

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 8:56

always curious to especially for church workers your journey to become from where you were to serve in christ in him as he aiding so tell us your story what was your journey what was what was that inflection point where you set where god maybe told you i know for me it was god suggested when i was in high school and i kind of said that's nice god i got other things i want to do and he pulled me a little

[craig_mattes]: 9:19

yeah

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 9:19

stronger so i'm just curious what was what was your journey like

[craig_mattes]: 9:24

yeah you know for

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 9:24

for

[craig_mattes]: 9:24

me like were really again i feel i i've always had a faith in christ but when i went to college i went developed raise a university i started hanging out with some friends who i felt these these folks are really following what they're saying they believe in and it was at that time where i kind of had a critical nature in me and i just started reading my bible every day and then one day someone actually noticed i can't remember what their exact words but words words were it was something like you're not being as critical as used to be and i was like it wasn't even something i was trying to change in my life god's word the spirit just was doing that transforming work in my life and then from that point on i was doing a lot more risky things i was kind of like i sold more of an introvert than an extrovert so a lot of things i wouldn't do because i was i was scared so but that moment where i was really i would say i dedicated my life to christ trying out new things i wrote for the school paper i was i read the news on the radio then led a small group ah and even though with having the lutheran church and education like my first small group meeting we went around and i just was a participant and we're going around in a circle and were like someone started a prayer chain and the thing was when someone pumps you they're going around in a straight circle when someone pumps your right hand you say your prayer then you pump your left hand well someone pumped my right hand and i just immediately pump my left hand and like i didn't learn that i didn't learn to pray lot with people in my lutheran background you know and then you know you just advanced the clock in a few years i graduate in leading a small group of folks in the north at a chicago suburbs and we actually without even knowing there were smaller ministry books we multiplied into three different groups to retreats and and that was kind of a big spark in my life and then i worked in the printing businesses same before for eleven years but was becoming very involved at my church in palti northwest suburb of chicago and then i just felt the laura doing something with me to like to do church work talk with my pastor mike newman is now a texas district president and he told me about the director of christian outreach degree that you can get with court universities let me check that out yah got enrolled in the program there concordia saint paul and and then it wasn't very long before the church i was going to brought me on board as a director of outreach and then so then i have been working for seventeen years doing both outreach and kind a small group ministry for three different churches and then god you know i always like to change things up and then it was more than a year ago was ready for a new transition and god put this thing on me to start a business where it's been really remarkable it's like i'm using from my had a marketing degree of valpo and then i worked in the printing business for eleven years work for the church for seven and i got my director of outreach so now i have a digital services company where we're doing social media website management um graphic design i'm running projects that's for churches across across the country i am really using all of my education and all of my work experience like most every piece right now for this post for what i'm doing right now it's like it's like as if god had it planned or something

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 13:05

that's correct

[craig_mattes]: 13:07

so that's been really keeping me that's been keepin me busy in avi with my wife amy and i've got two sons eighteen year old will

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 13:14

we

[craig_mattes]: 13:14

and now a seven month plus old ragon and they're just beautifu boys and just so blessed by god for them so

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 13:22

so you have a eighteen year old and you have a seven month or so you don't sleep and you don't sleep for two different reasons

[craig_mattes]: 13:28

yes right the eighteen year old we're looking at colleges for next year and

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 13:34

right

[craig_mattes]: 13:35

it's a crazy it's a crazy place i never bored

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 13:39

i did

[craig_mattes]: 13:39

so

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 13:39

i can

[craig_mattes]: 13:40

there's

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 13:40

imagine

[craig_mattes]: 13:40

no now time for me to stray and go into bad places

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 13:44

oh

[craig_mattes]: 13:45

like god's keeping me very busy for his kingdom for the number one minister being my family and so but it's been beautiful

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 13:54

so social media is always one of those things that become challenging i think in today is culture what is the one suggestion that you have for churches not to do on social

[craig_mattes]: 14:06

oh

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 14:06

media

[craig_mattes]: 14:07

not to do that's

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 14:09

h

[craig_mattes]: 14:09

really all right well not to do i'm kind of a say when you're using graphic don't use what what do you call clip art i kind of hate all that you know so i was just talking with moving with one pastor like where do they even find the clip art these days because i remember the past member used to get him out of bunch of c des it just looks really dated and we're very visual these days know as someone said you never get a second first impression right so whether it's good or bad when people are seeing your stuff if it looks dated they can flip a station they can flip that to another social media platform in a second they will make their judgments within ten seconds so if that's one of the so that's just one of the things you know don't use that on your on your facebook on your instagram accounts and your news letters on your websites please get clear of that

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 15:11

that's a good yes and i also

[craig_mattes]: 15:13

okay

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 15:13

tell churches be careful of a copy writer infringement

[craig_mattes]: 15:17

yes absolutely i tell them that too right

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 15:19

yeah

[craig_mattes]: 15:20

try to create

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 15:20

yah

[craig_mattes]: 15:21

you know whatever you can canvas been an amazing tool if an get churches can get free subscriptions to it to their o versions not trying to do a cavor commercial but there's so much out there that you don't have to worry so much available you don't have to worry about trying to get into that place and worrying about copyright

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 15:43

yeah when i started a podcast i realized you couldn't just use music you wanted to use unless you wanted to get sued so

[craig_mattes]: 15:49

exactly

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 15:49

you have to make sure you got the music approved or buy it

[craig_mattes]: 15:53

one i was i used to have a blog that i was running regularly and i had a friend asked me oh crag where are you getting these graphic so i'm just going googling and i'm founding on line then he sent me like an article a person who got suit they literally did i mean would it happen probably not but i guess if there's that chance that it could happen and legally you know you don't want to break the law we should probably not do that

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 16:17

exactly

[craig_mattes]: 16:17

use other people's work

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 16:19

right

[craig_mattes]: 16:21

for sure

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 16:22

so speaking of people's work you wrote a new book a new devotion i want to talk about is called jesus love

[craig_mattes]: 16:28

yeah

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 16:28

and just before we get into it i want to ask you a little because this whole social justice thing has been it's been a buzz word that's really kind of taken a

[craig_mattes]: 16:37

right

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 16:37

different almont a different path than it originally started out with oh

[craig_mattes]: 16:41

m

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 16:41

i did research under word social justice is actually a catholic term um

[craig_mattes]: 16:46

oh really okay

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 16:47

it's a virtue and it was really about the catholic church it was the idea that the people of god would bring together all of their gifts their talents and their abilities and they would as community

[craig_mattes]: 16:58

m

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 16:59

do what's best for the common good of the community so the idea of social

[craig_mattes]: 17:02

m

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 17:02

justice was the christian church coming into communities and putting together like you talk about your dad having all of your resources to help those in your community

[craig_mattes]: 17:12

yeah

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 17:13

but it's

[craig_mattes]: 17:13

yeah

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 17:13

changed lately

[craig_mattes]: 17:14

right

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 17:14

so it's very differnthan

[craig_mattes]: 17:15

right

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 17:15

what it was designed to be

[craig_mattes]: 17:17

right now it's kind of like well what's fair for you i should get you know if you got this i should get this and it kind

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 17:25

oh

[craig_mattes]: 17:25

of becomes a comparison game

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 17:27

right

[craig_mattes]: 17:27

um whereas what how you're describing from the catholic church that was coming from thinking of others first right

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 17:37

right

[craig_mattes]: 17:37

now it might be i'm generalizing right might be like what should i get and what's fair and what do i deserve

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 17:45

right

[craig_mattes]: 17:46

seems to take some of that attitude right

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 17:50

so tell us what you were thinking about when you wrote the book jesus love and justice what was your what do you hope people what led you to write it first of all and

[craig_mattes]: 17:59

ah

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 17:59

then what do you hope people get when they read that when they read this the study for thirty days

[craig_mattes]: 18:03

ah well it was inspired i had a friend close friend al we were in a small group together just super serious mature christian and we just started chatting and somehow he was just saying you know like he's really concerned he's hearing that buzz word of free social justice and people are throwing it around he's like well what is god's word saying and in his i know there's books out there an tim keller has got a book plenty of books out there but he wasn't fine things at the time and and he really wanted to educate people on the biblical biblical perspective of social justice and i don't i don't know if i really ever thought about it much before i mean a lot of stuff was goin culture during covid and m long the lines of social justice and let me okay let me pray on that let me see what god's word had to say and it really you know it's one of those odd things where it did not take me even very long one yeah i'm feeling called by god to write this book or to even find the material to go in this book i mean i would say within days the title just came jesus love and justice and i probably had rough drafts fifteen of the day's devotions it's a thirty day devotional with kind of a discussion guide and it's interesting because h i've been really watching like writing it i was very conscious to not let go one political route it would be really easy to go that way you know to pick to pick an alley you know if you wanted to and i'm like well that's not at all what i want to do i want to go from the word so i really well i was praying through each day's devotion i mean whereas i'll share you know a story from the word and i'll say like this happened and this happened like like a quick example like i'm sharing story about like david and saul and so was sue saul was the king david wasn't yet the king but he was he was going to be the next in line to be the king and saul was super jealous and he's he's out to get david whom he used to love dearly right and there's a couple of times so saul wants david de right and there was a couple of times where david had the opportunity to you know to be just or whatever too get his revenge would have you were gonna call it against saul to take his life because his life is being threatened by saul and i and his peers were totally hey you should do this get him now and wouldn't he completely showed mercy like he really loved sal i think he could see but i was just reading a book where i was looking at people either two dimensionally or three dimensionally like you can cease let's say if there's an angry person be easy just to see the anger and just take it at that and be offended and what have you but would you take the time to look at the person three dimensionally and see what is reason why there's that hurt was there something in his past that caused that because if you would take that time to consider that maybe you'd be a lot more compassionate and merciful and gracious towards that person and certainly with all that i put jesus you know as the main we're in the title because no one exemplified that more than christ i mean he didn't sin right it wasn't fair that he was put on a cross but he did it for all of us for all who had come to faith in him he was he willingly took his own life sacrificed his life so that we could be saved and that again that could be like well that shouldn't happened that wasn't just then like if there was a whatever we had our media today who knows what would happen but that wasn't his how he operated he operated with mercy and then and some one was just saying there's there is a difference between those two words like mercy comes with their knowing there should be a consequence so if you are wronged well there should be a consequence for that wrong but you lift that that punishment on that person relinquish it and just forgive it and we're doing that a lot today so kind of going back to the devotions so share these stories i give these questions to ponder but i really tried to write in a way where i wasn't like i'm not preaching at people i'm just so and they'll read the stories read the word let the spirit speak with them and and come to their own conclusions i'm hoping which lying with christ and we were talking earlier there's different ways to read you can read it as an individual easily but i really encouraged people to read it as a group because it's that group setting that your biases your pinions um might get lifted up and you might get challenged and then maybe it ud be that opportunity like oh okay this has just been my opinion or my thought but this is now what god wants for my life for mine attitude towards my neighbor and okay god is shaking me up with this and messing with me to grow to be more like christ and that's that's really what i'm opening would happen from this book

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 24:27

so you get people out of their echo chambers and start listening to each other

[craig_mattes]: 24:32

exactly

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 24:32

yeah

[craig_mattes]: 24:32

right right absolutely and i shared the book with multiple kind of if you would say and the different political realms too you know like i could have easily let me show it to this side and get their opinions oh it all looks good and i was trying to be intentional also like so both of the two mice main political parties i gave a reading to each you know and then i asked did you see ani leanings one way or the other and both of them it they're going to be honest with me either went that way and they felt it was just being rooted in god's word so that was that was good to hear because that's what i wanted for the book

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 25:12

you know you mentioned te word mercy it was interesting i did in my bible to that covered mercy and one of my devotions

[craig_mattes]: 25:19

okay

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 25:19

the chapter was a good samaritan and as i was studying at i came up it a different definition of mercy because i looked at the story of how the samaritan interacted with the man who fell among the robbers and

[craig_mattes]: 25:33

hm

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 25:33

jesus response it starts out with he sees a robber and the samaritan jesus says had compassion on him but when when you asked the young lawyer

[craig_mattes]: 25:43

m

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 25:44

you know what what did you who showed in mercy he says the one who bandaged him up and took care of him so it shifted from compassion to mercy and what was different it was you know and i use the example of sometimes i'm up lake can't sleep and i'm watching the t v and the commercial comes on for the dogs who've been abused and they're on you know they're on television and says adopt this dog and his cat because they've been abused and take him home now

[craig_mattes]: 26:12

hm

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 26:12

when i watch those those post poor animals look like they were abused and they're cold and they're shaken

[craig_mattes]: 26:16

yeah

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 26:17

and i have compassion because

[craig_mattes]: 26:19

right

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 26:19

you can't watch that and i have compassion that's

[craig_mattes]: 26:23

right

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 26:23

not mercy because me watching

[craig_mattes]: 26:24

m

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 26:25

him and

[craig_mattes]: 26:25

hm

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 26:25

going on that's terrible and then turning to going to bed isn't mercy what

[craig_mattes]: 26:30

yeah

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 26:30

makes it mercy is when i pick up the phone and i call the adoption agency i adopt the

[craig_mattes]: 26:35

m

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 26:35

dog or the cat and i bring it home and i show it love that's mercy

[craig_mattes]: 26:40

there's an action with that you're saying

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 26:42

yeah so i say mercy

[craig_mattes]: 26:43

yeah

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 26:43

is compassion plus action you know is not

[craig_mattes]: 26:46

that's

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 26:46

just

[craig_mattes]: 26:46

good that's

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 26:47

sitting

[craig_mattes]: 26:47

really

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 26:47

there going

[craig_mattes]: 26:47

good

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 26:47

oh my heart breaks for you i'm goin to walk away and leave you here

[craig_mattes]: 26:51

right right that is excellent and that's very good

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 26:56

this is so cool so as people read this and you hope they look at it and begin to assess their biases and start to look at justice from god's perspective if you were trying to help some one who's trying to figure out how does god define justice what would you say

[craig_mattes]: 27:16

hm um m well there's going to be you know like there is a payment for things so when adam and eve sinned and he said it you know like if you eat that tree you're to die there's goin a be a death involved right because he's a perfect god so there's going to be justice but the difference between you know christianity and all these other world religions um we have like if we were up in front of we're in a court and we're going to be charged for something and god's justice world t would be like him as the judge if we were found guilty for something and then we're given whatever that punishment is he would walk down take off his robe and he would take our punishment so there needed to be a justice then going on to kind of maybe i guess even the scale that may not be the right phrase to use um but something needed to happen but yet you can there's this opportunity to show what you're saying mercy and it's not just uh uh you know you know that's so nice should help that person like you really do and you step up oh you helped that person but yeah there's gonna there was a penalty for sin you know so there is going to be justice and god just knew and how he created this universe creating justice right it had to be something that he created that he knew that we were never gonna able to live perfect lives and he was able to set up that plan right away in the beginning right in chapter three of genesis that the seed for me you would come and crush satan's skull right and there's already a plan right away to save us which is amazing

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 29:19

that's great so correct i like to ask my my guest to one of my favorite questions is what do you want your legacy to be

[craig_mattes]: 29:29

yeah you know i never really i don't know

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 29:32

oh

[craig_mattes]: 29:32

if i've ever really thought about that before

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 29:38

oh

[craig_mattes]: 29:39

you know even with working when got when i got that call from god to work for the church i also felt almost right away i'm never going to be one who is going to retire i just want to work like billy gram with such beautiful example mother teresa i want to go really my whole life serving the lord and i suppose that's the example i would want to show other people to my sons you know to whomever it's not like and it's not everyone can retire and that's beautiful but maybe for those who maybe have that quote official retire that doesn't mean just there's so much you can do right and in the kingdom of god and if you were with such a blessed person i'm sure you were blessed with so many resources and knowledge that you can pass on to other people not just m just be all about just finding pleasure in your later years

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 30:38

a

[craig_mattes]: 30:38

you know m so yeah

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 30:41

yeah

[craig_mattes]: 30:42

i guess that's i don't know if that's

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 30:43

that

[craig_mattes]: 30:43

such a great example of it but i

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 30:45

i

[craig_mattes]: 30:45

never really thought about it i mean i'm a person that i hope people look at me as being one who's gracious and kind um m and lives that way and it's all motivated by christ who lives in me

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 31:01

that's cool so where can people find your book and where can they find you in social media and tell

[craig_mattes]: 31:06

yeah

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 31:07

us we

[craig_mattes]: 31:07

so you

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 31:07

can

[craig_mattes]: 31:07

can

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 31:07

also

[craig_mattes]: 31:07

find

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 31:07

find your business to

[craig_mattes]: 31:09

yeah i was gonna just kind of be easier to give the so you can find the

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 31:13

yea

[craig_mattes]: 31:13

book jesus love and justice just go on amazon

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 31:15

yeah

[craig_mattes]: 31:16

so the printed books right

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 31:17

right

[craig_mattes]: 31:17

there

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 31:17

there

[craig_mattes]: 31:19

i haven't yet put it on kindle but that's coming soon and then if you just go to if you find me in facebook that would be easiest you know facebook dot com back slash crag mates services at m a t t s m you can also find my website is also just w w

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 31:35

oh

[craig_mattes]: 31:35

w pragmatic services dot com so that would be the easier ways of

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 31:40

yeah

[craig_mattes]: 31:40

finding me

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 31:41

well so good connected with you again my friend and blessings on your latest book and may people find it and really wrestle with the ideas of what does god mean by love and justice especially in this world where things are so difficult to wrap our minds around what that looks like and how it's been perverted by the world's idea of justice but

[craig_mattes]: 32:02

hm

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 32:02

getting back to of the fact that when god talks about justice is always that he's slow to anger slow to move giving us a chance

[craig_mattes]: 32:10

right

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 32:11

to re connect with him before god brings

[craig_mattes]: 32:15

right

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 32:15

down whatever nest sara we punished my we have because of our actions to

[craig_mattes]: 32:19

for sure for sure well thanks again so much for having keith really a pleasure preciate it

[keith_haney__the_man__the_myth___the_legend]: 32:26

thank you correct

[craig_mattes]: 32:28

right